This is not a review in the genre the internet has come to expect – a series of gushing observations after a company-sponsored junked, replete with mediocre SOOC snapshots. Instead, it’s both a series of observations from a working pro after two weeks of use, and a rational analysis of whether it merits a place in the bag or not – and more importantly, why
Having said all of that, there are quite a few reasons one buys an A7RII (trumpeting its virtues on the internet for money or worshipping it as your messiah until the Mark III do not count).Bad news spreads quickly on the internet and to say the toys were thrown out of the pram as a reaction to his review, would be an understatement. A guest article written by a psychologist titled the pathology of 'fanboyism' was subsequently published, where lizard brain behaviour apparently was to some degree responsible and also marketing departments :
The manufacturers are also equally culpable. What is extremely concerning is the illusion of independence combined with extreme enthusiasm: this stimulates herd mentality in the no-so-confident, itself probably the desired outcome so long as it results in an immediate purchase.What the psychologist didn't elaborate fully upon are the commercial photography sites and forums, that create
- Extreme enthusiasm for a brand or product.
- No shortage of affiliate purchasing links to facilitate impulsive purchases.
- On product announcement thread/news items there will be PREORDER affiliate links in a prominent position, to ensure the not-so-confidents can preorder without having to wait for months/years for production to finally meet the anticipated tsunami of demand and revel with everyone else in the community in photography nirvana with their new product.
- Threads on sales/price reductions with affiliate purchasing links.
- Threads/Posts on good purchasing experience from affiliate retailers.
- Threads/Posts on poor purchasing experiences from non affiliate retailers.
- Light touch moderation on posts disparaging and vilifying other brands, websites, reviewers.
- Not so good news and inconvenient facts about the communities own brand are downplayed, ignored, given a positive spin or moderated out.
- Frequent self congratulatory comments on how the website/forum/community is the greatest, fairest, knowledgeable, friendliest photography community on the planet.
The psychologists comments on 'fanboyism' also seem to be backed up from the comments posted to some of Roger Cicala blog posts on the findings of equipment teardowns, measurements of lens resolution tests made at infinity and lens variance. A lensrentals blog post with a large number of comments usually indicates that the findings of an examination or testing of photography gear conflicts with the expectations created by marketing departments and by those 'trumpeting its virtues on the internet for money or worshipping it'. Coincidentally, some brands appear more culpable than others in creating expectations that exceed the actual capabilities, which is fine until Ming Thein or Roger Cicala point out the not quite so good stuff and fanboys get all emotional.
I don't profess to follow many discussions on new or even existing photography equipment from manufacturers as 99% of photography gear is simply not on my radar, the Leica SL 601 is for some of its reported features. For insight on the camera on photography fora there was much speculation but little of substance, though perhaps to be expected in view of Ming Thein and Roger Cicala's posts, there was a surprising number of positive posts about other brands, the very same brands who attract more than their fair share of
It may be worth visiting the definitions of a shill from wiki ;
In online discussion media, satisfied consumers or "innocent" parties may express specific opinions in order to further the interests of an organization in which they have an interest, such as a commercial vendor or special interest group.
In marketing, shills are often employed to assume the air of satisfied customers and give testimonials to the merits of a given product.Bearing in mind the psychologists prognosis of Lizard brain behaviour in not-so-confident photographers and wiki's definition of a shill, what follows is only a very small
FredMiranda http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1393428/0
You have to be wary of generalizing about 'what the market wants' as it is not an single entity - every product manager knows it is all done by niches, from cars and fridges to phones...and cameras. One very clear and strong market sentiment is *small, light and functional*. Why carry lead in your saddlebags? Leica might rewrite the Meatloaf song to 'one out of three ain't bad', but not many would agree. Even at say, $4000, this lemon would not move in substantial numbers. Its lenses are laughably huge, and the kit zoom on it takes the weight to 2000 grams (4.4 pounds). Here is an alternative view on the matter from a senior Sony exec : "Size. It’s all about size – it’s smaller and lighter. That’s the main reason of choosing our products. If you don’t mind the feel of a camera that’s bigger and heavier please carry on. If you want to take a lighter and smaller camera, the Sony Alpha 7-series might be preferred. As long as the quality is the same, smaller and lighter is better I think. That is our policy." Some lenses are trending towards heavy and large - right now you can buy any just released heavyweight Milvus lens from B&H, but their sales managers are trying to work with the six month delays for the hugely back-ordered 335 gram Batis 25 and the 475 gram Batis 85. The same occurred with Loxia lenses to a lesser extent - despite no AF. Obviously neither Zeiss nor Leica have yet fully seen the light, and it is hard to turn an ocean liner around on a dime.
What to do....one Leica SL or getting two Sony A7R II cameras..... Interesting that Leica needed to copy the mistake from Sony to make big lenses for mirrorless cameras. Looks like a collector item to me for some very few, very likely not a big seller.
I'll play with it this week, but color me initially disappointed. Huge camera, giant lenses and a price tag that is simply absurd. For the price of the body only you can get an A7R II with Batis 25, Sony/Zeiss 55/1.8 and Batis 85/1.8. Who will honestly buy this?
Regarding adopting R glass to this body, I fail to see what advantage it will have over adapting the same lenses to a Sony. They will still need an adapter and there would appear to be no advantage sensor compatibility wise (unlike with M wides). On the other hand, using R glass on recent Sony bodies allows the use of IBIS, which nets a significant advantage to the Sony quite apart from arguably superior sensor options in resolution and high ISO performance. What am I missing?
I think what everyone wanted was basically a Kolari-modded A7ii --- a camera that would allow usage of all the M lenses with an adapter, while we waited for native AF glass. All they had to do was add a decent grip and maybe 4K to the highly-touted Q, take the 28mm lens off and make it a T-mount, price it at around $3,500-$4,000, and call it a day. It would have been perfect with IBIS, great ergonomics, and a small size --- a true threat to the A7 series. But no, they had to screw it all up by making a behemoth that costs $7,450. What a poor poor business decision.
To be correct, Sony has fixed the lossy RAW compression issue on the A7RII, the 2.0 firmware with the fix came out Monday.
I am still not to happy about the price or the fact that the camera is only 24 MP instead of 36. I do not think that the files will equal those from my A7r.DPReview http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7448206943/a-lot-to-leica-hands-on-with-the-leica-sl-typ-601
It's a bloated, overpriced, underfeatured trophy camera for insecure photographers more interested in their image than the image. You can almost justify the camera price but $5k for a 24-90 zoom??? Does anyone in their right mind think they'll see any difference between this and a typical high end zoom from the competition for 1/3 - 1/4 the price??? The Sony a7rII beats this in every way.
How un-Leica like. An experiment I feel is doomed to failure, I just can't see where the market is for this camera. The M has a huge appeal despite the high price because of the small rangefinder experience in a reasonably small package, this new system is bonkers.
So, $11,000 for a pimped out Sony with variable aperture lens.... right. I guess Seal is looking to update his camera. It's a bit of a paradox isn't it, that if you're smart enough to make enough disposable income (cause this isn't a pro's working camera) to afford this, that you'd be foolish to spend money on this. It has serious features. But applied in a non-serious way. It's a boutique camera with a laundry list of pro specs. For the weight and price you're better off with a Pentax 645z.
It weighs over 4 pounds with the lens -- too big!!!
Even die hard Leicaphiles will be hard pressed to say anything nice about this camera... Its specs are nothing to write home about, it is BIG and it is positively ugly, not to mention that it carries the usual absurd Leica price tag... What is there to like? What does it do over and above the competition to warrant a premium? What a pity that such a historic mark is fast becoming obsolete...
I just love watching the few die hard Leica fans mindlessly trying to defend this abomination of a camera...
Don’t reply to these guys. 90% of the comments here are from career trolls who have been trained like dogs to hate Leica.
This is most probably the biggest missunseratanding in the hostory of photography. This camera is ugly, bulky, outdated and expensive. I just cannot inagine that there is foing to be a single customer to want to get it.
Seriously, is this a joke? $10,000 for a mirrorless camera that's bigger and heavier than a medium format camera and is one of the ugliest beasts to be made in years? I know everyone bands on about the cost of Leicas and I have no problem with charging a premium for their cameras given the build quality, images, heritage, lenses, kudos etc. And their cameras are generally small and practical. But this is pathetic. Why would n't you get a D810 or a 5DS? You'd probably get better image quality, have a ton of change and you wouldn't have a hernia. Or get a Pentax MF? Or basically anything else. A fool and their money are easily parted as they say.
GetDPI http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/56286-leica-sl-601-oct-20th.html
Not a plug or anything like that but a fact. The new A7rII is a completely different and far better cam than the A7,A7r,A7II so if you had those previously I would not compare it to the new SL at all, not even close to what the new cam is and its new features and such. Seriously for your own comparison completely ignore those older models they truly do not represent Sony at this point. I know some gave up with those models and frankly I completely understand the reasons, it bugged me too. Not now though as the new body is a completely different beast and it works it's fixed its better and it actually performs as expected. I just noticed a lot of folks are comparing older models and that's just not a comparison to making a good buying decision. Carry on Popcorn is still cooking. Now my only other bitch in life has always been Leicas slowness to bring lenses to market. Now with there move to there bigger facility I hope that has changed for the better. I do hope so.
It looks about like a rebadged Sony A7R2 without 42MP, IBIS, and tilt screen.
This appears to be a Sony A7 body with a Leica T mount and the Q internals for a mere $6,900 Euros. The lenses do not appear to have a manual aperture ring and do appear to be huge. I agree with others that this is one camera Leica is not likely to have to worry about demand exceeding production. Even if they had done the Q body with the T mount and a couple of primes they would have had a better market prospect. Frankly, I don't care what the reviewers say about it I would not pay over $10K for this camera with a lens. Thank goodness Leica didn't price the Q as badly. Bottom line this is not a Q killer (I know they would not want to kill the Q) nor is it a Sony A7RII killer.
Presumably you are referring to me as well, but I have been a Leica shooter long before I was a Sony shooter, and I haven't completely converted. I used to shoot with a M8/M8.2/M9/M240 and recently switched to the A7 series, but I still have my M lenses and a Leica Q. This product pisses me off because it wasn't a ILC version of the Leica Q like it was hyped to be. That is what I wanted. Nothing more nothing less
Not that this is getting ugly it's not but just remember to keep it friendly . Thanks
If nothing more than an improved EVF, then Leica has just put sales $ into Sony's hands, handsdown. One would expect much more than that for around $7k versus the improved A7R2 for around $3k. Anyway you hack it that is double the price for what-better EVF, lower MP sensor, better menu perhaps, maybe better ergonomics, greater ISO-unknown as yet, faster AF-unknown as yet, high priced zoom lenses and an Otus sized 50/1.4. In today's world with Zeiss bringing out superb FE lenses, Leica's quality edge had been diminished if not forgotten by many. I do hope reviewers have something phenomenal up their sleeves because this could be embarrassing. I know many tout the S-007, but after a years wait that is also too little too late and with that being the flagship model every other Leica has to have a sensor way lower than the S's lame 37.5 MP, ergo 24MP. I like most agreed with the MP mantra until I got the 645Z.
I just don't get the value proposition for a professional. My niece got married on Saturday. The professional was toting a bog standard Nikon pro body and had a smaller spare (probably a D610 or similar). Her main lens was obviously a 24-70 type zoom (a Sigma from the look of it) and she had what looked like the monster Nikon WA zoom for group shots. Unless my maths is wrong the total of her kit including strobe is probably equal to, or even less than the SL+24-90. What Wedding Pro except those doing the top end weddings is going to be able to afford two SLs (for safety) and two lenses? Then there is the disaster recovery issue. If her camera had failed on the day then she had a cheaper similar body for backup but with an equally good sensor. If her camera had failed before the wedding she could hire a body for the day/weekend which will be compatible with her bog-standard lens collection. So, I can only assume the SL is aimed at wannabe professionals and not real professionals. Actually, thinking about it I'd modify that and say it probably does have a place for videographers with deep pockets. But it is competing with the Panasonic GH-4 'whatever' which professionals I have talked to use as the 4K standard, some use the Sony A7S which has the iso sensitivity advantage and just got a whole lot better in the M2 version, so again why buy a £10K system - what on earth would be the ROI? There is nothing I can see in this system which would compete with or replace the value proposition of my Sony kit at the best mirrorless ILC on the market. There is the Leica build and ergonomics but the premium is ridiculously high. The strangest contradiction in product management terms is that the Leica Q which is by comparison a third of the price but has the same sensor would probably make a good second camera for a wedding pro for reportage and grab shots. I have an order in for one (no deposit, so no pressure) but I'm now seriously thinking of getting the Sony RX1R mk2 instead. Sony is basically thrashing Leica and I seem to meet some of my Leica forum chums here at GetDPI who can no longer justify the benefits of a Leica system over the value proposition of Sony - especially as each iteration of their body/sensor works better and better with legacy Leica glass. Anyway, if a pro out there can explain the value proposition I am genuinely interested and not just trolling. Just my two cents!
I can see where Sony's rapid upgrade path causes a great deal of frustration. However, I went from the A7 to the A7r2 and feel very little overlap in their functionality. I also cannot see where this giant camera that lacks IBIS, low light capabilities, PDAF, canon lens compatibility, a significant native AF lens availability, Eye Tracking AF, a tilting screen, high resolution, any semblance of affordability and more can be flatly called a better all-around solution. For me, it would represent a giant leap backwards from either my A7r2 or my Samsung NX1. But, for the well-heeled Leica specific crowd, especially those that don't mind a large camera body, it looks like an interesting choice. I would particularly like to see a Sony body with a high frame rate and a deeper buffer and more responsiveness in every day usage. Hopefully, these strengths of the Leica are praised so widely that Sony begins to feel the heat. Otherwise, I hope that Canon or Nikon makes a mirrorless with those features. Or, I would love to see Samsung wake from its long slumber and invest in the NX1 system with more great lenses. Or release their own insanely spec'd FF body. Or maybe the rumored November Sony camera body already incorporates those features.Luminous Landscape
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=104826.0
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=104801.0
More toys for old rich people who still think about Cartier-Bresson. I think they should make a platinum model that gives you massages. Sony A7 is a very durable exceptionally well made device and probably about the price of Leica lens cap. My Nikon D800 is made very well too, and with a small ergonomic body. With either of these cameras, at a really fair and sellable price, you can put excellent glass on them and you have an excellent camera for just about any purpose. By the time they wear out we will be shooting 200 mp cameras, or at the very least 100 mp. and all of this stuff Leica is selling now will look like an iPhone 3c.
Ming Thein has a review up. Not nearly as negative as you guys. Fast and responsive with some quirks. Ok battery life. Good EVF.
I'd like to compare viewfinders, multi-shot file quality, shutter vibration, responsiveness and a few other features before drawing any conclusions. My a7II's viewfinder, while much preferable to the D800 (IMHO), leaves a lot to be desired and the loss of bit depth when using multi-shot mode and lossy compression compromise the RAW file quality. The a7II's EFC feature makes the camera more responsive and quieter but with adapted lenses it's useless at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec and switching EVC on or off requires menu diving. There's a lot of room for improvement in the a7-series.
Looking at the specs, the 24-90 is almost f4 at 50mm! That is ridiculous for a $5000 lens! You may as well shoot medium format for that size, spec and price. This is not a professional spec 35mm system lens, it's an oversized, over priced, slow as hell, amateur spec lens. Given the size of it, it means there will never be a constant 2.8 zoom lens for this system, ever. Who in their right mind would buy this at over $5000? In professional situations it's only really usable at f4 because if you set up your lighting and exposure for 2.8 and then zoom, you have to change your lights or be a stop under exposed. There are no other other lenses available at launch. Just this one, expensive, slow, enormous, limited zoom. This is going to flop hard.
No more personal attacks, please.
Leica S user: small user group to start with - leica S user who wants to add an SL to his kit: even smaller user group - Leica S user who also has an SL who ALSO needs a Sinar view camera where he must use the S lenses with full electronic communication (which doesn't exist and has not even been rumored, but for your sake let's pretend it does): positively tiny user group that makes the Phase One install base look like that of Canon's.
Exactly. Who is going to make these Leica chips? Who cares about the Leica name. You can put these old Leica lenses on the Sony and use manually. Who needs Leica. Photography as we knew it is over. This is ALL about consumer electronics now, and may the best chip win. Zeiss will make great lenses for all of them. They are a company that will survive. Hasselblad's days are numbered as well. People are sick and tired of paying three or four times more for a damn name. That's over.
Congratulations! Leica has made the perfect ecosystem for all 7 of you around the globe! Increase the rose tint of your glasses by another 15% and we can even see them offer multishot, which makes it perfect for ONE person in the world! P.s. Regarding the "Many pros are switching from MFDB to Leica" statement, I would like to see some numbers Instead of hot air. BC is the only top commercial and conceptual shooter for example that I can think of who is consistently working with an S system. Names like Drew Gardner, Miss Aniela, Joey L, Benjamin Von Wong, Frank Doorhof are all still happily using MFDB. It's fine if one is a fan of a niche system. No, really. But to bend all logic to suit your narrative about them, dude. Take a few breaths.
In a future blog post I'll comment on how the camera has been performing in the hands of actual photographers.
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